- wlug - University of Waikato Mail Lists

Re: [wlug] IBM and the JVM
by s swami 30 Jun '04

30 Jun '04

On Thursday 01 July 2004 20:43, you wrote: > Sid > > Your arguments seem emotional, poorly founded, irrational > overreactions stemmed from unrealistic and idealistic goals, and > you would be best to drop the subject. What are the unrealistic and idealistic goals you refer to? How is it emotional, poorly founded and an overreaction. You would be best to do better :-) > If you really want to help, do some real research into what IBM is > doing give them real-world reasons to do what you ask, things that > managers will respond to. They have themselves given reasons for open-sourcing their JVM. I'm just asking them to do it. > This isn't a personal attack and I apoligise if this is the way I > come across. I really think you're overreacting here, try to > >approach the situation pragmatically. Hey no worries Dr Spooner. But unfortunately you've got yourself into an interesting situation. Please read carefully what you have written and you will see that all you have done is given us your opinion with "jack" to back them up. > Best Regards And to you my friend. Sid.

1 0

Samba (re Monday's meeting)
by Daniel Lawson 30 Jun '04

30 Jun '04

One thing I forgot to mention when Greig asked me to talk about Samba in general, is that I am completely and utterly sick of samba playing catchup. Samba will always chase behind Microsoft's implementation. If Samba ever fully catches up and can play the AD game perfectly, and has zero problems, MS only has to move to another structure. It's a futile game to play at. Current Samba implementations fall foul of many of the problems Greig talked about. It's almost the same, but it is subtly different in many ways, and this causes problems. There aren't really any decent unified configuration systems yet, so running an LDAP backed samba system which *works* is not a trivial task to set up. The entire domain model of samba is tedious to work with unless you're running MS gear. That said, it's the only option right now. There are ways around it which have been implemented on large university networks, however support is tedious. I'm looking at using a custom GINA (the login part of windows) which will auth via Kerberos or LDAP, and having an AFS based network (Andrew File System), a distributed file system). It's not all doom and gloom, I guess. I get fairly frustrated with the attitude that seems to dominate overall major linux development which says that we have to mimic Windows. GNOME and KDE have done this, Samba is perpetually doing this. If Linux actually *is* better than Windows, why do we have to mimic them? We could at least be mimicing Mac OS X. I'd like that. Daniel

5 13

Fw: Transparent Proxy install - RH linux 7.3(2.4.20-28.7) updated via RHN w/ IPtables enabled & Squid 2.5-Stable5 w/ Dansguardian-2.6.1 & AV plug-in.
by scott.pichelman＠weirslurry.com 30 Jun '04

30 Jun '04

Ok, since I haev to wait moderator approval for over 40KB , I did not attach my files and will have to later on... TIA! Scott Scott Pichelman Systems Administrator Weir Slurry TM North America 2701 S Stoughton Rd Madison WI 53716 USA T: +001 608 226 5615 F: +001 608 221 5807 M: +001 608 279 0368 E: scott.pichelman(a)weirslurry.com W: http://weirslurry.com ----- Forwarded by Scott Pichelman/US/WAR/Weir on 06/30/2004 09:55 AM ----- Scott Pichelman/US/WAR/Weir 06/30/2004 09:36 AM To wlug(a)list.waikato.ac.nz cc Subject Transparent Proxy install - RH linux 7.3(2.4.20-28.7) updated via RHN w/ IPtables enabled & Squid 2.5-Stable5 w/ Dansguardian-2.6.1 & AV plug-in. Hi all, Can anyone help me out with my dilemma? Here is a brief overview of my situation... Research: I have been trying to get the above mentioned to work for some time! I have read Doc from these sources: http://dansguardian.org/?page=documentation http://dansguardian.org/?page=dgflow http://www.nyetwork.org/wiki/DansGuardian And...other posts/threads and doc as well! Mission: We are a mid-sized organization trying to set-up a Proxy server to cache & filter requests from Windows users. We "would" like to set-up all the above in the email "subject" line on one machine. Can we use it as a gateway like transparent proxying suggests? Can I use a test machine w/ a "DHCP" address & will the FW(iptables) still work properly? In what order should I configure, whast type of logging could I use to troubleshoot? I know it has been done and I have little time now, sigh. So, I found your list while searching google noticed that WPAD might be a better way to go, is this true in some cases? We do not want to have to change "browser settings" on all of the client machines. I am unfamiliar with a transparent proxy versus other options but wonder if someone could help me out with doc? Finally, I may be missing something very easily, if so, please forgive my carelessness. Is there a simple procedure to follow so I install simply and than add complexity as I go? Tryed installing one app at a time starting w/ Squid then DG w/ plug-in, then IP tables but to no avail... I used the standard config files in many cases and will attach those files. The errors I receive are when setting my browser to "direct connection" are "ERROR Requested URL could not be retrieved" & "Access Denied". There have been times when Squid/DG & IPtables filtering seem to work, but would filter "all" sites most of the time. Most of the time when I enable the FW or IPtables it does not seem to work correctly. Meanwhile, I am trying a new distro - RH AS 2.1 server and will patch 2/ up2date. Please view my attached doc and conf files. root@Linux-Test dansguardian]# cat /etc/sysconfig/iptables # Generated by iptables-save v1.2.8 on Tue Jun 29 16:49:36 2004 *nat :PREROUTING ACCEPT [22:4542] :POSTROUTING ACCEPT [1:132] :OUTPUT ACCEPT [1:132] -A PREROUTING -p tcp -m tcp --dport 80 -j REDIRECT --to-ports 8080 COMMIT # Completed on Tue Jun 29 16:49:36 2004 # Generated by iptables-save v1.2.8 on Tue Jun 29 16:49:36 2004 *filter :INPUT ACCEPT [627:56813] :FORWARD ACCEPT [0:0] :OUTPUT ACCEPT [293:29548] -A INPUT -s ! 127.0.0.1 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 3128 -j DROP COMMIT # Completed on Tue Jun 29 16:49:36 2004 Any help is greatly appreciated, if possible. Thanks. Scott Scott Pichelman Systems Administrator Weir Slurry TM North America 2701 S Stoughton Rd Madison WI 53716 USA T: +001 608 226 5615 F: +001 608 221 5807 M: +001 608 279 0368 E: scott.pichelman(a)weirslurry.com W: http://weirslurry.com The information contained in this email (including any attachments) is confidential, subject to copyright and for the use of the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient please delete this message after notifying the sender. Unauthorised retention, alteration or distribution of this email is forbidden and may be actionable. Attachments are opened at your own risk and you are advised to scan incoming email for viruses before opening any attached files. We give no guarantee that any communication is virus-free and accept no responsibility for virus contamination or other system loss or damage of any kind.

2 2

Re: [wlug] IBM and the JVM
by s swami 29 Jun '04

29 Jun '04

On Wednesday 30 June 2004 22:43, Oliver wrote: > > Now Sun's JVM is a beautiful thing! And it is Sun's JVM that > > will take hardware customers from IBM to Sun. For the same > > money, Sun's JVM running on Solaris and Sun hardware will > > outperform the corresponding offering from IBM -- I reckon. And > > IBM knows it too. > > > > My conclusion: IBM are telling fibs, really obvious ones too. > > I'm not so sure about the current state of affairs but certainly in > JDK 1.3 days IBM's JVM and Jikes compiler were often quoted as > being faster and better than Sun's respectively. I was talking about the Sun combination vs the IBM combination. But I'll take it out since it detracts from the main point. Thanks. Sid.

1 0

Trouble connecting linux to ValueNet
by Glenn Ramsey 29 Jun '04

29 Jun '04

Hi, My Dad has asked me to help with a dialup connection problem to ValueNet. He has Mandrake 9.0 and it works fine when connecting to Xtra. connection. The ValueNet connection also works fine from a win95 PC. From the log it appears that PPP is not starting: Valuenet with correct login data (same result with incorrect user name or password) Jun 24 20:50:03 localhost pppd[2645]: pppd 2.4.1 started by trevor, uid 1001 Jun 24 20:50:03 localhost pppd[2645]: using channel 38 Jun 24 20:50:03 localhost pppd[2645]: Using interface ppp0 Jun 24 20:50:03 localhost pppd[2645]: Connect: ppp0 <--> /dev/ham Jun 24 20:50:03 localhost pppd[2645]: sent [LCP ConfReq id=0x1 <asyncmap 0x0> <magic 0xe86fb3e4> <pcomp> <accomp>] Jun 24 20:50:06 localhost pppd[2645]: sent [LCP ConfReq id=0x1 <asyncmap 0x0> <magic 0xe86fb3e4> <pcomp> <accomp>] Jun 24 20:50:33 localhost pppd[2645]: LCP: timeout sending Config-Requests Jun 24 20:50:33 localhost pppd[2645]: Connection terminated. Jun 24 20:50:33 localhost pppd[2645]: Receive serial link is not 8-bit clean: Jun 24 20:50:33 localhost pppd[2645]: Problem: all had bit 7 set to 0 Jun 24 20:50:33 localhost pppd[2645]: Exit. Does anyone have a working linux dialup connection to ValueNet? If so would you be able to let me know what configuration is required? Anyone else got any ideas? TIA g -- Glenn Ramsey <glenn(a)componic.co.nz> 07 8627077 http://www.componic.co.nz

5 7

WLUG Meeting is tonight
by Meeting Reminder bot 29 Jun '04

29 Jun '04

The WLUG meeting is this evening ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Targeting Linux to Business. GreigMcGill plans to cover: * What Linux is currently very good at. * What I think is required to improve this. * What Linux currently CAN'T do * What I think is required to help this * Some notes on advocating Linux to businesses. Please replace Linux with OSS/FreeBSD/Whatever as your needs dictate. :) CrawshawSchool.

13 32

Re: [wlug] WLUG Meeting is tonight
by s swami 29 Jun '04

29 Jun '04

> > > The language doesn't have to be interpreted. Java is a > > > compiled language. It's just not compiled to the native > > > machine code. > > > > Most JVMs compile to native code, either JIT or ahead-of-time. > > Yes I know that the JVM does a certain amount of byte code to > native code translation. But this is implementation specific and > not guaranteed. It's called a virtual machine for a reason. Please clarify in your mind the differences among the language, the libraries and the JVM. Then you will realise that the specification for the Java language is silent about whether it is to be interpreted, byte-compiled or compiled to machine code. That is why I responded to your incorrect statements: "Java is a compiled language. It's just not compiled to the native machine code." by explicitly mentioning the JVM. You will also then realise why your claim that IBM has "forked" java is incorrect. (Aristotle points this out to you). As to fears of forking, they are genuine. here is a link for you: http://firebird.sourceforge.net/ And here is an excerpt from one of the pages from that site: --QUOTE------------------------------------------------------------- In August 2000, Borland Software Corp. (formerly known as Inprise) released the beta version of InterBase 6.0 as open source. The community of waiting developers and users preferred to establish itself as an independent, self-regulating team rather than submit to the risks, conditions and restrictions that the company proposed for community participation in open source development. A core of developers quickly formed a project and installed its own source tree on SourceForge. They liked the Phoenix logo which was to have been ISC's brandmark and adopted the name "Firebird" for the project. Because Borland's open source efforts regarding InterBase never really took off beyond prime release of the source code and the company returned its focus to closed commercial development, Firebird became THE Open Source version of InterBase. --END OF QUOTE-------------------------------------------------------- <ethical_rant> You see what these f--ks did? Now I don't give a shit what reasons they had, they should have gotten over it like Netscape/Mozilla did. It goes against the values I hold -- respect the company for the steps they took to open their sources and work with them for the benefit of all. If you have a problem, get some self-respect and write your own damn code from scratch. As more companies open their sources, I hope that similar sentiments to mine will enter the hacker ethic. </ethical_rant> > The main reason is so that Java's fortunes are not tied to Suns > fortunes. Which frankly are looking a little bleak. > ... Java as a platform is not tied to Sun's fortunes. Read the license, write code and give the code to Sun. You, IBM and MS can all do that. So far I have seen two arguments for "open sourcing" Java that are worth considering: (1) It will be convenient for Debian users since it will enable apt to transparently manage any packages. (2) Freedom will be good for the platform. To (1): This is a problem with Debian and apt. It can't be the download (I do it on my 33K) it is the hoops that /Debian/ and /apt/ require us to jump through. To (2): Yes. Let us hope that if it happens, we get a license similar in spirit to that of freedom, that Sun is given the respect it deserves and is able to profit fairly from it. And boy if I see the Firebird faction turning their evil green eyes thataway ... Sid

3 3

Re: [wlug] WLUG Meeting is tonight
by s swami 29 Jun '04

29 Jun '04

My replies to Daniel: > >You see what these f--ks did? Now I don't give a shit what reasons > >they had, they should have gotten over it like Netscape/Mozilla > > did. > > Which f--ks are that? Borland? I was using a lot of Borland > products at the time, so I remember the release of Interbase quite > clearly. It definitely had the feel of a company wishing to keep > dead code alive. Interbase was a good RDBMS, but it was losing > marketshare to SQL Server. IMO, the move to open source Interbase > was pushed by this, and not neccesarily out of any good will to the > world. These folks :-) referred to Firebird developers. Perhaps I was insufficiently clear: the context was the risks of "forking". Firebird forked Interbase and I don't care what their reasons were. They should have worked with Borland. > >It goes against the values I hold -- respect the company for the > >steps they took to open their sources and work with them for the > >benefit of all. If you have a problem, get some self-respect and > >write your own damn code from scratch. > > Now you seem to be talking about the Firebird developers (where did > the Netscape analogy go?) What's wrong with forking a codebase? > Especially if you think that the original codebase was released by > a company in trouble, as a way to wipe their hands of a dying > product. There we go, whats wrong with forking Java? And this is what concerns Sun and java developers like me. > > Don't get me wrong, I'm dead again the > zillion-opensource-products-to-do-the-one-thing sort of mentality > (yet another emacs with wordstar bindings and tetris.... what's the > point?), but in the case where you have taken a supposedly open > sourced product, and found that the group in charge of it is being > slow or tedious to get patches accepted, and in fact don't even > seem to *care* any more, what's the problem with forking it? It is > better to fork it than lose ongoing development entirely, surely? Java gets forked because MS feels that their patches aren't being accepted fast enough. > >As more companies open their sources, I hope that similar > > sentiments to mine will enter the hacker ethic. > > Your sentiment being "Always write your own code from scratch, > rather than take a useful codebase and work on it"? I hope not. > You're missing out on one of the most powerful aspects of open > source - you can take a project and modify it and release that, > legally. That is not my sentiment. But you highlight the risks of forking again. > Maybe I should point out where a fork has been beneficial: Samba > and Samba-TNG (The Next Generation). Samba TNG was forked at a time > where some of the developers thought the direction the main Samba > team was going was wrong. TNG was aimed at rewriting parts of the > core of Samba to do things much closer to the way windows does it. > Now, if Luke Leighton got "some self-respect and wrote [his] own > code from scratch", TNG would never have taken off. Far too much > work. This is not the same as my example. Interbase was originally close sourced, Samba was always open and developed by the community. If a large part of the community (read people who contributed code) feel the need for a change of direction, that is fine by me (similarly, I feel fine about X.org). You see these guys working on Samba-TNG and X.org contributed greatly to the original products. Now the f__ks who quickly set up their own Interbase repository and called it Firebird did not contribute a single line of code to what was a mature product (Interbase) -- they couldn't, it had been closed. They did not have the pedigree of the likes of Leighton or Packard and friends who also forked their originals. Forking in itself is not bad, it's who forks it and why. These ethical questions can be seen as relative. Hackers will vote with their fingers. If enough agree with my sentiments, these will enter the hacker ethic. (I hope I've made myself clearer). > >To (1): This is a problem with Debian and apt. It can't be the > >download (I do it on my 33K) it is the hoops that /Debian/ and > > /apt/ require us to jump through. > > If the license says you can't redistribute it, then any > distribution which prefers to maintain it's own repositories will > have this problem. I don't want to get into a discussion of what the different parties mean by "redistribute". Let's just look at it empirically: Java comes on every major Linix distribution disk apart from Debian. FreeBSD has negotiated a license with Sun that allows it to distribute Java from the FreeBSD site. NetBSD are doing something similar. Apple comes with Java. Clearly the problem is the Debian stance. Distributions can choose to be flexible. We all know of Linus's flexibility wrt to binary drivers "in" the kernel just as we know of RMS's opposite view. For Debian it is a religious question. That's fine. > Sure, you can always download it manually. And you can go and set > up your environment manually to path it correctly. And you can > setup binfmt so that you can just run a java app without having to > know it's java. What happens when you want to put a package that > depends on the jvm into your repository however? It is *really* > messy having a dependancy installed from source. Then your package sytem has a weakness with "having a dependancy installed from source". You could improve your packaging system or mandate (I'm being cheeky: substutute "ask") that all software conform with your broken packaging system. > >To (2): Yes. Let us hope that if it happens, we get a license > > similar in spirit to that of freedom, that Sun is given the > > respect it deserves and is able to profit fairly from it. > > > >And boy if I see the Firebird faction turning their evil green > > eyes thataway ... > > Get over it. If Borland stopped development of Interbase after > releasing it, it was because Borland didn't care enough about it. > Firebird did nothing wrong, other than force Mozilla to change the > name of it's browser a second time in short order. Interbase is still being developed by Borland. I will never use or support Firebird.

1 0

Gotcha!
by Michael & Colleen McDonald 28 Jun '04

28 Jun '04

Not so long ago I decided to dabble my toes in the waters of Linux, to broaden my experience and see for myself if it can truly replace that "other" operating system. I purchased a new system with 2 disk drives and proceeded with some testing. Since I wasn't ready to break "the ties that bind", my plan was to install Linux on the slave drive and that other system on the master. Fedora Core 1 loaded nicely onto the slave drive. But ... on booting the system, "GRUB" would appear on the screen (no menu) and there it would stay. Fortunately I had created a boot floppy. Away I could go, having to boot from floppy. Just as well I had a floppy drive! That boot floppy was transferred to CD within a couple of days. The other operating system was loaded on to the master drive. No problems there, but it was interesting to note that many drivers had to loaded (with much rebooting of the system) before all the hardware was operational - whereas Linux coped "out of the box". Was surprised to find that my system drive was "G:" ... because of the Linux partitions set up earlier. Along comes Fedora Core 2. Great! The install went like a charm ... until the reboot. Of course, Grub still wouldn't load. The boot diskette (CD) for the 2.4 Kernel proved useless too! I've tried, without success to recreate the loader, even trying to put the loader on /hda. Even went to the extent of renaming some files in the boot partition on /hdb1 ... that caused the installer to think I needed a new loader (which is what I intended!), but when it came to the end of the installation it said the loader was up to date so it didn't need to replace it. "Help!" ... any suggestions please? Michael

2 2

RE: [wlug] WLUG Meeting is tonight
by Lindsay Druett 27 Jun '04

27 Jun '04

And someone here can organise a bus for a trip to Taupo and back... :) > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Lawson [mailto:daniel@meta.net.nz] > Sent: Monday, 28 June 2004 14:33 > To: Waikato Linux Users Group > Subject: Re: [wlug] WLUG Meeting is tonight > > You really should try to make it up for a meeting sometime > Oliver. Taupo > isn't that far away. Perhaps you could even present a meeting > of your own? > > Daniel > > _______________________________________________ > wlug mailing list | wlug(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > Unsubscribe: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/wlug > >

2 1