Initially those transit providers and ISPs that do offer IPv6 transit
will be able to charge for this service as it will be a premium value
add. However I can't see this business model being able to last for
more than 6 years (through to 2012), and possibly only three years.
After this point in time I expect IPv6 deployment will be standard, and
will no longer be a premium service offering - it will be the standard
offering, like IPv4 is today. Once IPv4 has become exhausted and you
can't actually give a customer an IPv4 address then you definitely wont
be able to charge more for IPv6 - otherwise the customer will walk.
So do providers start implementing slowly now, and recoup some of their
investment while they can, or wait till they are forced to do the
upgrades and are not able to recoup any of their "new" investment.
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Donald Neal |Palmersdale: Are you in charge here?
Technical Specialist |The Doctor: No, but I'm full of
Operations Engineering | ideas.
Integration & Services Division +-----------------------
Alcatel NZ Ltd - Telecom's network operations manager
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> [...] there are no common and widely accepted
> definitions of what peering and other related terms actually mean,
> where 'widely' encompasses the whole of industry.
We need to take off our techie hats and put on our lawyerie or accountant ones.
How about this:
Neutral Peering is peering at a Neutral Location.
A Neutral Location is one where the entity providing the location does not provide connectivity to that location (or does so "at arms length" and competing equally with all other connectivity providers).
A Neutral Location may be any physical size, provided that the location provider does not charge for traffic or bandwidth between participants within the location.
In other words, Citylink metro qualifies as a location encompassing all of Wellington, because there is no charge within the "location". Telecom "peering" does not qualify beccause you can't backhaul your own cable and knock on their door saying "where do I plug in". Or if you could, you wouldn't get peering on an arms-length cost basis.
"While emphasing that it's still early days for the proposal and details
need to be worked out, Marshall says providers would pay for circuits into
Telecom's network, and the incumbent would reciprocate for connections
How is this an improvement on the current situation? They're not making
use of existing peering infrastructure, they're just making other
providers pay for a (Telecom-supplied) connection into Telecom's network,
which is an option that's always been available to anyone willing to spend
Here's hoping that they get told that anything less than true neutral
peering isn't good enough.
"Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer."
>Oh, and on your point about universities, I think you will find that most
>(all?) of them already peer. UoA, which is far-and-away the largest university
>in the country, certainly peers at APE.
Help me out here. What incentives can I (as operator of a local
exchange) now offer to a University to convince it that peering locally
is a Good Idea when they have KAREN? At various times, I've offered the
University Of Eastern Venezuela (*) peering for a) $XXX/monthly (**),
and b) the cost of a piece of patch cord, so far without takers. I
think I might have to pay them before the chicken/egg dichotomy gets
resolved ("We'll peer if everyone else does"; Everyone Else says "We'll
peer if they do".)...
(*) Name changed to protect the innocent.
(**) Amount obscured, but the number of digits is right.
We're trying to track down a potential interference problem that is
affecting one of our access points in North Dunedin. Could any local
operator using Trango or Motorola 5.8GHz gear in that area please
contact me off-list?
Tel: 03 474 2100 Cell: 021 993 125 Web: www.wic.co.nz
Co-location and Web hosting. Dunedin-wide wireless. Independent Internet Service Provider.
[once more for good luck - maybe THIS time I'll get it on list]
Matthew Poole wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, Alastair Johnson wrote:
>> Every ISP at Every IX? Does it end at ISPs? What about universities,
>> for instance? What about satellite networks where the uplink isn't
>> necessarily NZ based?
> At their local (to their primary centre of operations) IX, obviously.
> And I'm envisaging xx,000 being a sufficiently high number that only the
> University of Auckland (with around 40,000 FTE students) would even come
Okay, but if you're only interconnecting/exchanging at your local IX
then suddenly this is not as useful as it sounded. Telecom's primary
center of operations is indisputably Auckland. Does that mean that,
e.g. Trademe, cannot reach TNZ across an IX?
Or do we come back to region-isation again?
>> Are you going to pay for my long haul circuits to Palmy?
> Is your primary centre of operations in Palmy? No? Why would you peer in
> Palmy, then?
Because you're regulating peering. If we must peer, then surely
everyone needs to peer either everywhere (expensive), or at one IX
(expensive for some).
Otherwise you're significantly reducing the benefit of it before you
What happens if my POPs are islands and not connected to my backbone[s]?
(think internap PNAPs) I'm only going to originate local prefixes anyway.
What if I don't want to haul Content Provider C's traffic from Palmy to
my subscribers in Auckland because it's 50+Mbps?
Third option: regional based peering. My POP in PMR peers at the PNIX
and only originates local prefixes.
These all sound like significant business and technical issues that
would need to be addressed by regulation.
Unless your idea of regulation is to just focus on the big boys. Maybe
that's fair, maybe that's not....
>> Doesn't sound like it would work so well, to me. If we said only the
>> "major" IXs, what happens when the poor guy in Christchurch signs up his
>> XX,000th customer and is forced to peer... but isn't getting access to
>> the Big Boys?
> Realistically, how many ISPs that are based outside AKL/WLG stand any
> chance of getting 50+,000 users? Remembering that of the top five,
> unless something has changed a lot in recent times, only Xtra and the
> TCL stable are > 100k.
If the government is serious about our OECD rankings, then I think many
ISPs are going to hit >50k. If you believe press releases, Ihug, Orcon,
and Callplus are all around (or over) the 100k mark.
>> Regulated peering sounds very scary to me...
> Only if one takes it to absurdity. If it's regulated in such a way that
> only the very largest players could be affected, and the requirement on
> which IX(s) is based around centre(s) of operations, it's easily
> defined, easily enforced, and as I said won't really affect anyone other
> than TCL and TCNZ.
Which one may state is not particularly fair.
Incidentally, what about Vodafone? I've noticed that traffic from a
large number of smaller providers currently trombones via Tokyo and Sydney.
> Oh, and on your point about universities, I think you will find that
> most (all?) of them already peer. UoA, which is far-and-away the largest
> university in the country, certainly peers at APE.
I think you'll find that UoA in particular does not peer [any longer].
UoW also does not.